M.C. Laubscher is a wealth strategist, educator, and financial freedom fighter. He is the President and CEO of Producers Wealth and creator and the host of the popular and top-rated business and investing podcast, Cashflow Ninja.
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Welcome to the Global Investors Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market. Host, Charles Carillo, combined decades of real estate investing experience with a professional background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing. Now here’s your host, Charles Carillo.
Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors Podcast. I’m your host Charles Carillo. Today we have M.C. Laubscher. M.C. is a wealth strategist and educator. He’s a president and CEO Producers Wealth, the host of the popular investing podcast, CASHFLOW NINJA, and a Grant Cardone certified coach. His purpose and mission is to help producers and creators create, protect and multiply their wealth in any economy, and challenges existing societal belief systems and misinformation around concepts such as saving money, investing wealth and retirement. So thanks so much for being on the show.
Thank you so much for having me. Great to connect.
So I want to kind of dig in a little bit and see exactly what your background was prior to starting your, your current business, which is Producers Wealth.
Absolutely. So I have a background and in investing and finance. So I’ve an MBA in Finance and Marketing. So I started my journey, I just turned 41. So about almost 20 years ago, into around 2001. I came to the United States from South Africa. So I actually grew up in South Africa, born and raised there and school, traveled off to after university and traveled around the world a little bit. I played in, I played in a rugby league in the US. So play competitive sports, and that’s a big part of my background too is is being a competitive athlete and competing at a pretty high level, which helps me a lot in business, believe it or not business and sports are very similar. And then while I was actually traveling a lot and playing, I started reading and my mom handed me the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad, which a lot of your audience and listeners are probably familiar with. And that took me down the rabbit hole to learn everything that I could about investing about money, how money works, and how the game of money works and cash flow investments. So that’s kind of my background, I bought my first property right, a couple of months after I read that book, and then school started the real school started, right. But I’ve always been interested in economics, I’ve always been interested in history. I’ve always been interested in finance, because I feel that we don’t we never get the full picture, right? If somebody just studied economics, they get one, one side of the story. If they just study history, for example, they get another side of the story and if they study money, that’s another side of the story finance. So I’ll give an example of what I’m what I mean? Because your listeners are probably like, what does he bring that all together for us MC. Well, here’s how I would bring it all together. So for example, like, if you look at all the major wars, the First World War, the Second World War. And you look at now that’s the history part you look at the economic part well what happened during those times? Dear in economic times, right? Well, there was a lot of market crashes and there was a lot of bad times for a lot of people. And then you look at the money side of it, the finance the money game, while it just so happens that in 1913, the Federal Reserve Act was passed and the Federal Reserve was created to now fund what the US involvement in World War One. So there’s a there’s bringing it all together for you at that stage. So that fascinated me that’s that’s my background, how it pertains to Producers Wealth, is we figured out that there’s a game that is being played the wealthiest families, individuals and corporations and financial institutions, know this game extremely well. They play it very well. So we looked at what they were doing with their own money, as opposed to what they’re telling everyone else to do with their own money and it produces wealth. We help folks do what wealthy families, corporations and financial institutions do with their own money. So that’s it in a nutshell, my background a little bit before Producers Wealth and CASHFLOW NINJA.
Yeah, it’s definitely a difference between what wealthy like family offices do. If you ever spoken anybody that manages family offices compared to what your average american does? It’s a completely it’s a whole different ballgame.
Complete, complete opposite, right. So it’s almost like, you know, it’s almost like a Seinfeld episode where when George was running, and he’s saying, you know, Jerry that my entire life is the opposite of what it should be. So if I just did the opposite of everything that I did that I would have that life. Right. So it’s almost it’s almost similar because think about it. You know, they are telling you a lot of what corporations and financial institutions tell telling you to do. And what’s marketed to us is, hey, you’ve got to save right? You’ve got to save your money. Well, what do they do with their own money? They turn it over and over and over, hey, you have to buy a primary residence invested real estate, you buy primary residence, right, which is their asset. By the way, the bank’s asset is an asset in a Robert Kiyosaki said Your house is not an asset. It is an asset. It’s banks asset. So and what do they do? Well, if you look at financial institutions and banks and insurance companies, they’re the biggest institutional investors of commercial real estate. And there’s a reason for that. I mean, these tall buildings that you see all over major American cities, who owns them, they do they understand the power of real estate. So tying into that opposite, I always say to folks that the same asset classes are available to everyone, you know, real estate, businesses, commodities, paper assets, you know, with the stocks, bonds, life insurance and so forth. But so we all have the exact same access to the same asset clauses. But what we do within the strategies is the complete opposite. You know, I’ll give an example with a stock stew where the majority of the population are invested through qualified retirement plans, you know, because Warren Buffett Jeff Bezos, all those guys are 401K and IRAs right now, they don’t, but so folks invest in the stock market through them and what what do they do they buy and hold? They just buy stocks and sit and hold? What do the professionals do? Right? They trade and if they buy a stock in a company, which Buffett is actually not a stock trader, he’s in buying companies. He hedges himself with options for example, and collect income on those options, by the way. So there’s a different way, a strategy for all these folks, they just do the complete opposite basically than what the what the general public does.
Yeah. It’s interesting is one of my buddies that’s in financial advisor, he would tell me like my, one of my most difficult parts of my business is competing with people that are investing in real estate because he’s like, I can’t compete with a 15% return. So it’s, you know, for if someone’s buying commercial real estate, and it’s leveraged, you know, which is pretty normal, full total return. So you describe yourself as obsessed with cash flow. So how did that work that work after you know, you found out about that after Robert Kiyosaki? And that’s what you’ve kind of formulated everything around for your business.
Yeah, I was just obsessed with it. Because, well, here’s the story. I read the book, I took action. I mean, nobody tells you this stuff in school, right? They don’t teach you in high school, how to buy assets that produces monthly income. You know, that’s that’s not a concept that’s taught in schools and universities. So I took action, I bought the first investment property. And I still remember that, you know, and this was this was a, this was like a condo ish building, two bedroom, two bath, I paid all of the things that I needed by mortgage insurance, all that stuff all my expenses after I received my rent, and at the end of the month I money left. And I’m like, whoa, this is ridiculous. So I paid all this is mine to keep this is positive cash flow. And my first thought at that stage was, how many times can I do this? How many units can I own? That? After I pay all the expenses every single month? I get I’ve money left over. Right. So that was a complete paradigm shift. You know, and folks talk a lot about I’ve been asked by people, hey, what’s the greatest deal that you’ve done or the best deal that you’ve done? And I always say to them, it doesn’t matter what deals I do now is that one deal as small as it was my biggest deal, because of the way that I started thinking. And the way that my paradigm shifted, my mind shifted. So I started to see the world in a completely different way. And that’s when I started realizing that, hey, this is what the pros do. And listen, it wasn’t perfect off to that school started, as I said, as any real estate investor would tell you, hey, guess what? People don’t pay their rent, I guess what people might beat up your place, right? All this stuff happened after that. But the way that I thought and the way that I saw the world started changing, and that’s when I became obsessed with cash flow. And then I started seeing, hey, this people that actually buy businesses in this way, and don’t work in the business, but work on the business, right. They have a team running for them, and it’s a passive income generator for them. You know, Henry Ford did like a great quote where he said, you know, don’t work too hard. People work so hard that they forget about making money. Right? So, which makes this basically don’t work inside the business work on the business. And then I looked at other asset classes, and it was the same thing where the pros invested for cash flow. They don’t invest just to buy something and hopefully it appreciates and sell it at a higher price. And if you look at what happened then, I mean, this was in 2001, we went through the big upswing, we had the big crisis, right? The housing crisis and the financial crisis folks that actually invested for cash flow. Most of them came out, okay, and stay through that nobody came out perfect, you know, through that storm, but you know, you came out okay, on the other end, if you invested for cash flow.
Yeah, the people with appreciation were the ones that that kind of got crushed in that especially if they didn’t have if their debt wasn’t being covered and stuff like that. So it’s it’s definitely true when I started out and we had smaller units, and you’d have that like we were saying, you know, some beats up your units believes that the victim one, and the thinking would be less units, but the thinking is really more units in scale that because when you have the scales of economy costs go down, but also that you have lot more income streams coming in, right? Unless you’re just buying in like D class properties and stuff like this, if you’re buying in normal C, B properties, you know, you’re paying tenants are going to take care of all your non paying tenants. And then you know, you can just build off that. So what is producers wealth and how do you work with business owners and investors?
So I call us a wealth creation firm because we don’t actually manage any money. We just we do help with strategy. It’s actually an Insurance Brokerage. Okay, again, back to, you know, another product clause where there’s so many different worlds associated with it. So I’ll give an example. We actually help people create their own banking system. With life insurance contracts, to leverage to go and invest in real estate, so a lot of our clientele are in business owners and investors. You know, a four step process is very simple. We like to keep things very simple. If you’ve got to create money, cash creation, you know, you have to create and produce for the marketplace as a business owner, or does investor, you know, let’s just say you’re a surgeon or lawyer, you’re doing as a W-2, but that’s your unique ability, right? That’s your high income skill set. That’s how you create money. The second portion of that is, well, the money that you the money is resides somewhere, you’ve got to make money now you have to protect money. Where do you position capital efficiently aligned with your goals to move you forward? So for example, if you’re a business owner, why would you give your money to a financial advisor to put in stocks, bonds and mutual funds and technically invest in someone else’s business, that money should be positioned so that you can invest back into your own business to scale and grow your own business. And if you’re an investor, same thing, you know, I see folks come to us and they want financial freedom through real estate, but they have all these IRAs and 401k in stocks, you know, in different vehicles, but they want financial freedom through real estate. So how do you position that capital efficiently to align with that goal, right? Because it doesn’t make sense that I want to do one thing, well, I want to drive to LA but guess what, I’m getting on a plane, you know, to Toronto, it’s like, you know, doesn’t make any sense. So, that’s the second part of it is capital positioning, and that’s where we use the life insurance contracts. And then through a strategy of collateralizing, the life insurance contract, we then leverage the money inside there that’s guaranteed growing tax free earning dividends with a death benefit for estate planning to then invest in real estate that produces cash flow or businesses. And then the money the cash flow from that is just warehouse back in the insurance contracts. And then the fourth step is cash control tax strategy. We’ve got great tax strategy partners in our network and then estate planning, asset protection and so forth. So that’s another one of my obsessions have never thought I would be obsessed with cash flow taxes and life insurance. But that’s the Yeah, it’s kind of crazy. When I say that out loud, even I might need to speak to someone. But that’s that’s what I learned from what wealthy folks do is, they make the money, they protected the money, they were all set somewhere to collateralize it meaning they use that asset to acquire another asset, which is a very strange concept to a lot of folks. It was for me first, but we do it all the time. In real estate. Let’s just say you have a single family investment property, you can actually get a HELOC on that to tap into the equity to buy another property. You used one asset without selling it to buy another one. Business owners can get a credit line or a business loan secured by their business. We just had someone on our network, he has a business, he went into the bank, and he got a business loan secured by the receivables in the assets of the business or what did he do with it? He bought the building from which his business was operating from. So what did he do there? He used his business without selling his business to buy real estate. You could do the same thing with commodities. It’s called commodity backed finance, with art with gold and silver. You could do the same thing with stocks and bonds. It’s called asset based lending, where they’re certified financial institutions that will actually give you a loan secured by a stock portfolio and you could even do it but with Bitcoin. I don’t endorse this but there’s a company that actually does that. So if you have Bitcoin, you can collateralize Bitcoin to buy real estate, for example, we do the same thing with life insurance because with real estate, with life insurance contracts, the whole Life insurance contracts that we use you over funded. So there’s a period of time that you pay into us just like you would pay a mortgage from a real estate property, right. There’s there’s appreciation so the death benefit appreciates in the contract every year just like a real estate property would if you take care of it and do it properly. But as you’re making payments, you will build up equity in the into the contract much faster than in real estate. But as you do with real estate as well when you pay the mortgage and the principal, and then you get to tap into the equity of the of the life insurance contract, just like you tap into the equity of real estate, through a policy loan and real estate, you have a HELOC. It’s both a credit line right and then you get to leverage the money to then invest into other assets. So and of course the tax free growth and the invisibility. It’s an invisible assets. So it’s a lawsuit proof and most, most of the states as well makes it a preferred vehicle for us and as opposed to the other asset classes that I just mentioned, for my personal taste, I’m very conservative. So I love something that’s guaranteed, that’s guaranteed, that is guaranteed growth growing tax free. And that’s not a moving floor underneath me which stocks would for example be right. So and we just copied and pasted what this strategy from family offices basically. So what they were doing, and for folks listening to this for the first time, if you research what banks and financial institutions do, if you just Google bank owned life insurance, or corporate own life insurance, you know, you could type in Jeffrey Immelt, GE life insurance, that kind of stuff stuff, you’ll see it, you’ll see that this is what banks and corporations do already for a lot of key employees and also banks for example. Whereas a lot of their tier one capital, which is the capital, their safest capital, in life insurance and what’s the other vehicle, real estate, all of their tier one capital, most of it, if you look at the grass is either in life insurance or real estate. So we just got we just study very closely what all the all these entities do. And we implement and execute similar strategies.
Yeah, it’s very interesting because with family offices, if you look at their strategies, it’s really keeping everything in house. So they they keep and it’s very, it’s not normal, when you look at it compared to what the traditional person does, because everything is kept as much as possible in the office. And so, why is it so important for an individual an individual investor or business owner to have their own banking system as you say?
Yeah, so for the first thing is access to capital, you know, investors have need access to capital the same as business owners, right? So what do they do? Well, as an investor, they raise capital from other investors, as a business owner, you have to walk into a bank. So when you build up your own quote unquote bank, first your business bank or your family bank or just your own bank, now all of a sudden you have a place where your money is safe, growing and liquid that you can utilize for your own growth, to grow your own business, and to invest into your own deals, and then keep the cash flow and manage the cash flow. So you’re the beneficiary think because this is exactly what banks do. Banks take in capital, right? they acquire capital from depositors, right, like they used to in the old days, I’m not talking what’s going on right now. It’s kind of crazy. But in the old days, they acquire capital from from depositors. They would take that money that was deposited into their bank, and they would loan it out. And there’s a spread between the two and the bank was the beneficiary. Overall, the bank was the entity that make money from the system from this inflows and outflows of capital. You can set it up and structure it the same way. So that you’re the beneficiary of the capital that flows in and out of your life. I’ll give an example. A mentor of mine said, you know, M.C. think about the earth is one big giant pool of water. You know, the oceans are all connected, the oceans are connected to the rivers, the rivers are connected to the oceans. And then there’s underground water which is connected to the rivers which is connected to the oceans. If you think about it, the giant pool of water on Earth, it’s just all connected because you know, let’s just say there’s it gets hot, this condensation clouds form the water comes down to the earth, where does the water go? It ends up in this giant pool of water, oceans, rivers, underground water, it’s all connected like pipes, again, Seinfeld reference, but the same thing can be said with money. If you really truly think about it, that the commercial banking sector, the money always ends back in commercial banks. You know, if you and I go out for a drink, and something to eat at a restaurant, all of a sudden the money is then taken out from our bank accounts and credited to the merchant account of that particular, you know, institution. They pay their employees. I mean, I, you see where I’m going with this, it goes on and on. But where does the money actually end up what ends up back in commercial banks. So they figured out that whole pool of water pool of money concept, you could do the same thing, you know, if with a properly structured cash flow management system and insurance contracts, and by the way, that there’s a reason that now these banks and financial institutions and family offices do it as well. Another thing that I didn’t talk about is the opportunity cost, you know, which a lot of folks would get about that, you know, we could buy something for example, for for cash. We don’t have the cash anymore, but we have, we have whatever we acquired the asset right? Or we could just borrow money to purchase the asset, right now we have the asset, but we owe a lot of money. Well, what if you had your own system that you can leverage and maybe combined with someone else’s, to purchase an asset, you still have money growing liquid, you know, as if you’ve never touched it, and you’ve acquired that other asset, use one asset to acquire another asset, eliminates opportunity costs. And this is, by the way, if you count, you know, or keep track of this over your lifetime, this could be very, very, very expensive. So and, you know, you want to be as tax efficient, too, you know, you guys talk about real estate all the time. The game of money is is taxes and debt and the end right, and cash flow management. So it fits in really nice with the model. And, you know, and it doesn’t have to be the way that you know, we use life insurance for your audience because I’m just trying to provide value for them. Think of something that you can use within your own personal business economy that you can leverage or position more efficiently so that they could do many things for you and your overall strategy.
Yeah, no, that’s great. So you work with so many different investors and business owners. What are some of the mistakes you commonly see investors and business owners make over and over?
The first thing, the biggest mistake that they make is they, they, they don’t take taxes seriously. And what I mean by that is, most business owners and investors overpay for taxes. I thought I was doing a great tax job and I had a team I overpaid for taxes. This is the one of the biggest I would say, things that could really, really move the needle for your business or for your investor investments. Because what I learned I actually sit in a family office with with a couple of advisors. You know, it’s like a kid in a candy store thinking like, Oh my goodness, I’m gonna see all of this all the good stuff, show me all the good stuff and what they want showed me was so simple. It amazed me, number one, how simple that everything is that they do in there. And the second thing was the focus on taxes, because it’s one of the advisors said to me, M.C. Think about it this way, if we can reduce taxes for this specific family, let’s just say we can knock off 15 to 20% of their taxes this year, and in the next five years, 10, 15, 20 and so forth. And they could use that money to put back into their businesses and investments. There’s no return out in the marketplace that could that that’s going to beat that. And it’s going to, it’s going to snowball the growth of your business, it’s going to snowball the growth of your investments because all of a sudden, you have more money now to use to do that. So a couple of tax strategies, you know, if you’re looking at from from a from an I’m not an I’m not a CPA or a tax advisor and I don’t play one on YouTube, but the one of the things that I would say is look at your investments and how you fit number one, how you make your money. And number two, where you position your money because I use huge tax advantages there and then how you deploy it. So in our framework that I that I mentioned earlier, cash creation as a business owner in the United States, there’s so much incentive for business owners to reduce taxes, and so many tax advantages, because the federal government does not want to be in the business of creating products and services for people. They need an entrepreneurs, which drives innovation to do that. So there’s incentives. Then from a capital positioning standpoint, life insurance is the bedrock of a lot of our society, right. And that’s the role that it’s played for a lot of families. So if somebody let’s just say passes away or suffers a loss, they’re made, being made whole not including, obviously the emotional component, financially, so there’s incentives there to put allocate capital in that area, because money, money gets to grow tax free, and those vehicles, then if you look at investments, the federal government doesn’t want to be a landlord. You know, I think like a lot of the housing that they are involved with loses millions of dollars every single year. So they don’t want to be involved with that at all. So they want, they want real estate entrepreneurs to take that role to provide good quality housing for the population, and therefore, there are many, many tax incentives for real estate investors to do so. You know, the same with energy, the federal government wants to increase, you know, obviously increase the innovation that goes into cleaner energy. So there’s a ton of tax incentives there. You know, there’s a lot of different avenues for investing. That not only provides great cash flow, but it also reduces your taxes, legally. Because of the service that it provides to society, and it’s doing the things that the government wants it to do, right. So that’s just a I guess it take more on taxs more than a strategy. But I think for everyone listening to this figure out how you can make a capital and how you can make it more tax efficiency, how you can position it more tax efficiently, and then how you can deploy it and invest it into assets that not only produces cash flow, but reduces the tax burden.
Right, Yeah, no, for sure. On the other hand, what kind of recurring themes and habits Do you see from successful investors and business owners that you work with?
They love very intentionally in all areas of their life. If I have to look at the the most successful people that I’ve interviewed, and that I’ve spoken to and that our clients, they’re very intentional about what they do, and they have a plan for every single dollar that comes into their own economy because if they don’t, they know they’ll fall prey to Parkinson’s Law, which, you know, just quickly stated, the more money you make, the more money you spend. And if you don’t have a plan for $1, that comes into your own personal, personal business economy, all of us all of a sudden that money now is blends right and toys, toys end up in your house or in your business, right? Or in your driveway. So you’ve got to be very intentional with your life in all areas, but they’re very intentional with their plan and what they’re looking to accomplish.
Interesting. One other one other kind of strategy that you talked about with them, we touched on briefly was multiplying your capital, you know, with this term, and how does that work with someone? If they’re a real estate investor, if they’re a business owner, how can you How can someone bring that into their own business and into their investments?
Yeah, so the the whole concept of multiplying capital instead of just growing it is when you have when you have $1 doing many different jobs in your own business and your personal economy. Now all of a sudden, you’re really moving the needle. I’ll give you a case study of what, what I’m talking about. So we have an investor client of ours. He’s about 40 years old, right about the same age as me better looking. But he invest in he loves mobile home parks. So he’s a big investor in mobile home parks. So he actually wanted to allocate a certain amount of capital every year to invest in mobile home parks syndications, it’s going to pay about 8%. And the capital he allocated was about $200,000 per year. And by the way, if you’re listening to this, this is just you know, basically an example. You can take off the zeros if you want, or add some more zeros, but 200,000 is what he was going to invest in mobile home parks 8% and he’s passive income goal was $360,000 per year basically. So we ran some numbers for him if he just did it and every year without even reinvesting the cash at all, it would take about 22 and a half years if my math is correct, for him to be able to deploy 4.5 million, which would bring him $360,000 per year of passive income just from the mobile home parks. Now, if you reinvested obviously the cash flow, that would knock it down significantly and be around 11 or 12 years, I would say, if my math is correct, for him to be at his target, right, he’s passive income target. So what we did was we ran it through a life insurance contract first, and then deployed the capital into the investment and then we looked at the results. And it’s the same thing, you know, he would take about 20 years. By funding, get the life insurance contract first and then leveraging that contract and then invest in the mobile home parks would say about 20 years, you would have $4.5 million deployed great, grand and $60,000 per year again, we didn’t reinvest the cash cash flows. So if we reinvest that the cash flows wouldn’t be about the same 11 to 12 years give or take around about in that time frame where he would still hit his goal. And this is great. If you look at it from a big picture, though, there’s one thing that we notice in 20 years, where he would reach its target, he had an additional $1.46 million tax free in his life insurance contract by running it through their first and then leveraging it to deploy and invest in mobile home parks. Now 1.46 million, I don’t know about you, but that’s a lot of money for me. So that’s what we mean about just tweaking a little bit what folks are doing, because they’re already cash flowing and just as I call them, so we’re tweaking a little bit of what they were doing. And now all of a sudden, you know, there’s one $1.46 million extra tax free, doesn’t have to pay taxes on that in 20 years. Now you’re starting to really steamroll and putting some little bit of rocket fuel and what you’re doing. So that’s what we’re that’s what we’re talking about. If you think about, you know, the examples within your own life or in your business life or people that, you know, I brought up an example of another person in our network, that use these business to acquire the real estate that is in, if you run the math on that, now, you’re not just adding and having the slow slow growth or a little bit of compound growth. Now you’re starting to multiply capital. You know, and there’s, by the way, there’s many forms of capital to this is just a financial capital peace. You know, we talked about multiplying your mental capital and your relationship capital. And there’s obviously strategies to do that too. But those are just examples where you’re getting into now the zone of, you know, instead of just adding and subtracting, now we’re multiplying, and we’re now putting a little bit of rocket fuel on board we’re doing.
Awesome. That’s very interesting. It’s a different it’s definitely a different goal, a different plan to get to the same goal, but just a little different on the way there. So how can listeners learn more about you and your business?
If they’re interested in these strategies and they want to look into it, we put a free video course together. It’s yourownbankingsystem.com. It’s yourownbankingsystem.com, where we basically talk strategy, we talk about tactics, we show case studies of all of this. And then we answer frequently asked questions in this too. So if they’re interested, you know, feel free to check it out.
Okay, sounds good. I’ll put that link into the show notes. So I want to thank you so much for being on the show today. And look forward to touching base with you shortly.
Thank you so much was it was a blast.
Have a great day.
Hi guys, this is Charles from the Global Investors Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you’re interested in investing in real estate and you don’t know where to begin, set up a free 15 minute strategy call with me at schedulecharles.com. That’s schedulecharles.com.
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About M.C. Laubscher
M.C. Laubscher is a wealth strategist, educator, and financial freedom fighter. He is the President and CEO of Producers Wealth and creator and the host of the popular and top-rated business and investing podcast, Cashflow Ninja.
His purpose and mission is to help producers and creators; create, protect and multiply their wealth in ANY Economy without getting ripped off by Wall Street & their governments.
M.C. challenges existing societal belief systems and misinformation around concepts such as money, saving, investing, wealth and retirement.
He has shared these ideas as a guest on several podcasts and is a regular contributor to Grant Cardone TV, Steemit, Medium.com, Linkedin Pulse and Biggerpockets.
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