Dan has been a multifamily real estate investor for 12 years. He focuses on 20 – 150 unit communities in West Florida. In addition to investing, he & his partner Josh Diggs provide property management to out – of – town investors through their firm Palm Communities
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Announcer: Welcome to the Global Investors Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market, host Charles Carrillo combined decades of real estate investing experience with a professional background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing. Now here’s your host, Charles Carrillo.
Charles: Welcome to another episode of the Global Investor Podcast. I’m your host Charles Carrillo. Today we have Dan Pepper. Dan has been a multifamily real estate investor for 12 years. He focuses on 20 to 150 unit communities in West Florida. In addition to investing, he and his partner Josh diggs provide property management to out of town investors through their farm Palm Communities. So how’s it going today, Dan?
Dan: Charles, thanks for having me.
Charles: Yeah, no problem. Um, I wanted to go over a few things. I know we met at a Tampa Raya meetup about a year ago and you explained that you work with a lot of investors and most of them, US investors, but you also have a handful of foreign investors. And how did you get started in real estate investing?
Dan: Well long story, although all good ones are, after college, I want it to be an investor, kind of choosing between public stocks and private real estate. I think I just enjoy the touching kind of tangible part of real estate. Probably something a lot of people I can relate to. I also sort of believe that loans and proper leverage, not anything crazy but proper leverage on deals allow you greater returns on capital and real estate versus the stock market. You know, buying a $50 a share and hoping it gets to $70 a share for example. But I was green, I knew I would probably lose a lot of money in real estate diving straight in as a investors. So, I wanted to kind of cut my teeth either as a loan underwriter. I guess kind of understanding that I could either, sort of understand how loans, lenders, banks, private capital, how would they sync and decide about providing some times 70, 80% of the capital needed to buy real estate. I just thought that, you know, the underwriting process for your listeners who I get loans, it’s often opaque. It’s hard to understand that how lenders make their decisions. So I thought it would be uniquely interesting to understand how those decisions were made. But then also I thought, if it wasn’t lending, I’d also enjoy serving as a broker, someone who transacts commercial real estate, sort of uniquely seeing how buyers and sellers are motivated to make decisions. A broker’s job is to build a smokescreen between the buyer and seller. So I kind of wanted to peek behind that curtain. It just so happened that I was able to connect on the broker’s shy with a great company, Marcus and Millichap, uh, that I’m sure many of your listeners know and just a good example of sort of what I mean that I wanted to understand the process behind things, on the broker side, a great example, when you’re a buyer know going to buy property broker will tell you they have 10 offers on the table. What they won’t tell you, five of those offers are low ball, four aren’t really qualified buyers. So at the end of the day you really only have one competitor. So anyways, that kind of allowed me to think that when I was investor down the line I could understand the process better.
Charles: That’s a great way of doing it. Going back from that way through and then when you start investing, you already have framework to know exactly how the system works and know what they’re trying to tell you, what they’re trying to make you believe when you’re buying a property, which is so true because they might have multiple offers and you have to sign the multiple offer form, but then you figure out later to that, you were ahead all the time. It’s just, it’s funny how that works. So you had a couple of different projects. I know you were working on with other investors and one of them was very interesting here. You help the group have a Venezuelan clients take a 48 unit property completely through the business plan from the purchase, the renovation, that sale, which is very interesting because normally you will find the investors that will bring you on later or bring you on during the process or bring you on later during the process once they’ve already made a mistake or done something. So how did that go? They, they purchased it and you knew of them beforehand?
Dan: Yeah. So just quickly the bridge, the gap here. So when I was at Marcus and Millichap, I was focused on office and medical kind of healthcare properties. But as you and many listeners know, Marcus is a huge multifamily transaction shops. So I kinda got the multifamily bug and I started buying some small multifamily properties. While I was still at Marcus, I realized that in the long run, brokers wasn’t for me. It’s a very cutthroat field. I much more enjoyed of relationship building because brokers build fantastic relationships. But anyways, I went out, started doing investing full time, bought a number of small multifamily properties, fix them up, sold some and then the process, we started managing some of the deals that we were selling. So, we had a 16 unit that I sold and I started working with the partner Josh Diggs, who’s a awesome investors, super creative guy and we started realizing that we could kind of put our talents to managing. So, we sold a 16 units who, a buyer in needed a management company. He interviewed a bunch of companies, didn’t really like what he found and so he said, “Hey, can you guys stay on?”. We kind of did it as a favor to him and started managing some other properties he had. And then just sort of organically through referrals and word of mouth, we don’t advertise at all. We started managing now about 500 units. So in that roundabout way to get to this 48 units, that you’re mentioning. So, it was actually a Marcus transaction. Marcus Miller chaps sold 48 units in Tampa to a group from Venezuela. They were new to the US and I think in many ways due to that size of deal and multifamily. So Marcus had referred us cause we had done right back up clients of theirs on the management side. So we came into kind of help the folks through the buying process, through the rehab and value add process and then actually ultimately they ended up selling it. There were a lot of lessons to be learned, but it was, it was a good deal for them. Just to give you some kind of example numbers, the group bought the property in 2016 for about 3.3 million and frankly it was a low cap rate. In other words, you know, the return to them was quite low. Over two years we did a pretty heavy turnaround on the property. My partner Josh was there on Christmas Eve for a police raid of the drug dealers unit. We had some serious folks to clean out of the property there. So over the two years we were able to kind of reposition the property, do some light rehabs and renovations to the interiors and we ended up raising monthly collections from about 29,000 a month to about 39,000 a month. Apply to your cap rate, that adds a lot of value. The owners ended up selling it in 2018 for just about 4 million, which was around the 700,000 gain over two year periods. So it was a good Perrey, lots of lessons to be learned that I think at the end the clients were very happy to make a good return like that.
Charles: What were the, obviously to make money, but what were they did a two year whole so obvious there are appreciation investors, I guess they didn’t really care too much about the cashflow. Is that what their goal was when they went in?
Dan: Exactly. I mean, I think in its simplest form, you and your listeners, partners know that, at a very high level when you buy property, you can either, spit off a nice steady cash flow, sort of coupon click return or you can reinvest that capital. You get on the rents coming in to improve the property and then your return really comes when you sell it. It’s more the appreciation gain. So in this case, the, the investors knew from the start, you know, we don’t really need a great coupon clip, we don’t need great cashflow. We’re looking to build wealth and appreciate. And so they were able to reinvest the capital. We were getting a grant to put towards renovating the units and ultimately selling at a good price for them.
Charles: Have they looked at anything else? Are they interested in buying again in Tampa or anywhere else in West Florida in your area?
Dan: Oh yeah. They’ve looked a lot in Tampa. I think they have started to realize at least in the dead, certainly in the core markets, they’re actually, they actually live in Miami now, in the more core markets like Miami, DC, New York, LA. I think they realized that the market is very tight on the investment side. It’s very hard to find properties with a decent yield. So they had kind of moved into Tampa Bay, which is a bit more secondary. I think there are even finding that now, even in the secondary markets, pricing sky. So they’ve actually gone through a tertiary, they bought, I think about 120 unit are showing Gainesville and they’re basically doing the same thing. They are, they’re installing washer, dryer connections, the units. Okay. Like, you know, hard flooring, instead of carpets. Doing a value add program, they’re in it produce the same sort of result.
Charles: Yeah, it’s great. There’s so many different markets and especially in Florida, like little markets and little, you know, secondary and tertiary markets. There’s a you and another property that we have spoken about prod previously and it was for a client, a British client, and they had a 12 unit and you came in I guess after all the trouble had already started and you were had to clean up another mess from another manager. How did you guys go about that and what kind of problems did the owner and you guys have as a management company once you got started there?
Dan: Yeah, well I think, perhaps that was a good anecdote about the value of having good boots on the ground. Everyone uses that phrase and say, if I’m going to be an international investor, placing capital cross an entire ocean, I can’t be there everyday. I need a local kind of expert or team two assist on the basics and the day to day. This British client, they bought a 12 unit, fairly small property in Clearwater. So toward the beaches in Tampa Bay, they bought it in, I believe it was 2017 and they actually interviewed us for management with a few other firms. And I actually gave them a few other names just so they could have some folks in interview and kind of make sure they made a good decision to say just pulling the trigger and going with us. They ended up interviewing a group that was willing to manage for a lower fee than us. I think it ended up being about 1% of gross income less than we were. Just as an example, I think maybe we were, I’m going to earn an 8% management fee of collected income and that group agree to do it per seven. So, you know, understandably everyone’s looking to save costs where they can. So the client ended up going with another group to manage the property. We kept in touch. I always just kind of like to see how deals are going. About six, eight months into the deal, they quickly realized that you kind of get what you pay for. This group was sort of known for being a low fee shop in town and also a low touch one. They kind of spread their staff too. Thin calls went unanswered, maintenance calls went unanswered and occupancy starting when they bought the property about 92% I think it dropped to maybe 50% or so within that first six months. And really no plan or action to reoccupied the property. It was just, yeah, you would try calling the phone number on the sign and no one would pick up. So the folks that bought the properties switched or another management company, I actually separate from us. It had also agreed to work for that lower fee. That company over the next maybe eight to nine months, drove the property from 50% occupied to around 40%. So anyways, I think, I had kept in touch with the owners and they said, you know what, we’re out of town. We’re on the phone with these folks a lot, but they’re not really getting results. We will gladly pay you 1% more collection that you’re going to reposition the property. Anyways, we came in and over the next six months in our tenure boosted occupancy up to 100% and also got the property and do more of what I would call an offensive position, defensive when you’re losing tenants, you do whatever you can to keep people, even if it’s lowering the rent. Yes, it’s bending over back with forum free reign, etc. Once we have a property full, we have a waiting list, are much more able to drive rank growth. And so we were able, even on those existing tenants, the other kind of 40%, we were able to bump their rents up. It ended up being a nice deal for the British clients. They exited, they sold the property two years after their initial term. So it was really what, nine or 10 months after we started managing. They sold the property for about a 40% gains from their purchase price.
Charles: And the other thing that’s kind of scary about that, when vacancies going down, as you know, maintenance issues are not being addressed. So there was probably a ton of deferred maintenance, which shouldn’t have been, you know, regularly addressed that you guys had to take care of it as well. Not just adding good paying tenants to it. What kind of, what kind of property was at C or B
Dan: Yeah, it started as probably like a C+ or we moved it into the B category for them. So that was part of that kind of nine months process was repositioning it. We did some renovations to units. And it was, it was a painful time for them. You know, we had to the 40% occupied the 40% or kind of the rents that were coming in. We had to use those funds to cover their property taxes, their insurance and try to fund renovation through that money. They didn’t have a whole lot of sort of saved up for side capital. They were able to contribute a little bit to put toward the rented it. But I actually for a couple of months, we even put in kind of a small personal operating loan just to kind of help too with the property and get it through. And of course they were very thankful and as a result, they sold it a nice gain. So in the end it kind of all worked out. But I’m sure your listeners listened to plenty of radio and interviews and folks always tell you about the great things and things that go right. In the end, the deal did go right, there’s a lot of pain on the owner pushing through very tight cash. I mean $5 in the bank account type of situation.
Charles: He had no financing on this, I imagine. Is that correct? He paid cash for this property.
Dan: They did have dead, but it was some sort of an international, I think it was like a personal friend and there’s, they’d provide a debt. So I think the kind of debt provider agreed to forgo payments while we repositioned the property. Yeah, we can kind of demonstrate, look, we’re well turning the property around. It was a few months to get it, this property, the ship righted so that we can get you back on track.
Charles: Yeah. Because I would imagine that, if you had a regular debt, a debt financing on this property, they would’ve been, they might’ve had some many different stipulations come into play there where you might be putting money into a reserve or something like this to even start obviously because with reserves, but at this point going down to 40% occupancy, they might’ve even taken control of the property in one way or another. I mean that’s very low.
Dan: Yeah. It, uh, it could have been much more ugly. You’re right. Debt providers are known for not being too patient or lenient on their policies. So, I would just say it’s a great anecdote or example that, you know, when your listeners go and buy property abroad, uh, you can call that company as much as you want to try to get them to act. At the end of the day, the companies, you are going to be responsive and sort of on top of things where they aren’t. In the world of property management you get what you pay for. I think a lot of investors as they look at different markets, whether it’s Texas or Boston or Florida, uh, they should make sure when they’re talking to local operators, get some testimonials both from brokers and from the current management companies, clients to really understand how they performed in the past. Obviously that’s going to be a great indication. Saving 1% on management fee by losing 60% of your gross income is painful. So..
Charles: And 1% up and 1% on 12 units is probably less than a couple of hundred bucks a month. I mean, it’s nothing really when you’re, I mean one more vacant apartment. I mean washes out any type of savings you ever had. There are referrals for real estate are definitely, I mean with mostly with any type of business, especially with real estate, getting referrals for property management, financing, anything else that might be is definitely the way to go. There’s not any, nothing really beats it. So Dan, you had a friend that was very interesting cause this is quite the portfolio that your friend friend has. He has 600 units in Tampa and Jacksonville and he self managing him, which I imagine he has a team of 12 plus people for doing that type of that type of a vast amount of units. Uh, how, how did you, how did he acquire these and he still lives in France, is that correct?
Dan: Yeah. So he certainly had an advantage that you started, sort of compiling, acquiring properties around 2009 when, you know, for your listeners that we’re investing in that time feels were fairly easy to come by. Let’s compare with today in 2019. So he was able to, he actually bought a lot of single family and then some very small multifamily. So that makes it even more challenging. You’re talking about 600 units where you’re doing a transaction every week instead of buying a hundred units here and a hundred units there. But yeah, he just did it organically and naturally started in Tampa Bay and then realized actually Jacksonville had a bit of a kind of running room left on the single family side. So, he really has built a nice portfolio that way.
Charles: So you’re saying that a large percentage of them are single family houses out of all the,
Charles: Wow. That is a, that’s a management feat right there. I mean, if he has a system in place and he’s not even, not even present, but I mean buying nine’s also much different than buying them in 2019 if you had cash.
Dan: Yeah, exactly. So buying rights certainly helped. And then he’s a very hands on guy and so yes, he does live in France. He actually lives in Portugal for a little while. But yeah, he comes here a lot, like I would say probably once every month or two. And he has, he’s built out a team. So we actually talked to him early on, you know, hey, we’re happy to manage for you if we can help. But third party manager is not right for every investment group. Admittedly there are some pitfalls to kind of shopping out, your management if you want a decision on every small detail of your portfolio, your property, a property management company is not for you because we have certain procedures we have to follow, we have our license to be concerned about with regulation. And so, you’re kind of buying management company’s plan on how they operate property. If you have your own plan, a witch. That was the case for him. Frank, he really wanted to run it his own way and so he built out, he came out, found a couple of great kind of staff folks that we could hire. They were his, the answer to him, they set policies by him, and they of course then hired some folks beneath them and he’s now built out a very impressive team.
Charles: Yeah. The logistics on that must be, must be something. I mean that is just so many different doors spread out all over I would imagine. But Dan, you were saying like lately you’ve been getting a lot of calls from Canadian buyers and what type of properties are they looking for and are they looking for straight appreciation? Because I was talking to some people in Toronto a couple of weeks ago and they’re telling me there’s literally no cashflow in that market.
Dan: You’re right Charles. And I think that’s what is driving a lot of Canadian interest. It’s not so much the appreciation side, it’s more of that looked like, you know, I’m used to investing in Vancouver and I’m getting a to recap. Boy, Florida looks awfully appealing even though it’s a seven cap and they were, yeah, nine caps a couple years ago, Seven cap today, sure as heck beats my three cap now. And so a lot of investors I’ve found they’re here more for the cashflow, then the appreciation. Certainly some are here to be value add shops and improve turn around properties very quickly. But most of the folks that have called us have been, “Hey, you know, I’m looking at a 70 unit apartment complex. It’s fairly stabilized, a little bit of room left to go on rent, but I just need to clip a better coupon that I can get in Canada”.
Charles: Yeah. What, uh, now you were saying you have benefits when you speak to these potential investors and you suggest them speaking to local embrasure appraisers instead of brokers. Which most investors start the process of investing, if they’re US investors or foreign investors, they start talking to brokers first. And they go that way in. Where is you’re telling them to start on another, another end almost.
Dan: Yeah, like a lot of folks will asked me, what do you think to the market? how are rents doing? do you think this is a good deal? etc. And you know, everyone’s return requirements are different. I can speak in broad brushes, but a lot of folks will say, Oh, you know, I’m receiving a research report from x Brokerage House and uh, you know, this is a company that transacts property. Their information is very valuable. You know, can I rely on that info? So generally you can, uh, and I don’t mean to throw brokers under the bus. I used to be one myself, but brokerage always have an angle. They’re trying to create action. They’re trying to get a seller to sell their property. They’re trying to get a buyer to buy their property. So a lot of research reports that you’ll read, or when you talk to brokers, they’re going to give you sort of actionable info. They’re going to say, look, the market is changing very quickly. You need to act today. I like talking. If I want to understand markets, I like talking to appraisers. Appraisers are the folks who truly value properties. They’re the ones that have lender retains to say, what is the true value of this property because our client is buying it? Or what are the comparable rents in the market? Appraisers have vast data. I mean, we as property owners get calls from appraiser every few days. What are your rents legally? have you sold anything? What was the cap rate? They’re out there with a totally impartial a view saying, you know, let me learn more about the market. And so I always tell folks like, reach out to an appraiser, a local, they often are glad to talk because frankly they don’t get paid. Folks who call them and say, I want to hear when you have to say.
Charles: Yeah, that’s very interesting because it’s whenever you’re getting a property, if you get on market property that comes out and they give you the memorandum on it and you look at the a proforma rents and they’re saying you get 1100 and then you speak to your local appraiser and they say you’re getting 980, you know what I mean? Which is a huge difference in price and it’s crazy how that works. But that’s a great, that’s a great tip. So what are your opinions of the, I mean of the Greater Tampa MSA in general? Like from where we are right now, we’re, we’re halfway through 2019. What do you say when people, US or foreign buyers, what do you talk to them if some, if someone comes to you that’s interested in purchasing a property and apartment complex, let’s say?
Dan: Yeah. So our real focus is west Florida and as a broad brush, I love it personally as a lifestyle. There’s a great community here. Fairly good job growth, particularly for what I would say a secondary market. Great lifestyle, very low cost of living as compared with DC or Boston. And of course we invest in ourselves. We believe in West Florida and really Florida as a whole, we believe very much in the area long term. So I would say for folks looking and comparing here versus say a rustbelt town with population loss, Florida’s very attractive, just simply writing population growth here can be an effective strategy as folks move from the snowbird states to the Phoenix’s of the world to the Southern California is to the Georgia and Florida markets. However, just to put a small sort of caveat, I am concerned about investment property pricing. I believe very much in the fundamentals. I think rents are going to continue to be very strong. I think that demographic trends are tremendous, but I do field that investment groups are sort of adding an additional layer of hype to it that folks are falling over one another to place capital to get a better yield than they can get in a CD. And so they’re willing to accept a fairly nominal margin. But you know, in other words, I don’t think sort of investors are pricing risk correctly. A five cap rate when your debt costs is say, 1.2%, it’s a very thin margin for you as the investor and there are a lot of things that can go wrong in real estate. The roofs all have to be replaced. The new property gets build next two years and now you have to offer concessions to get tenants in the front door. So, there may be a price correction to come. No one could predict the future, including myself, especially myself. So we could still keep writing this for another 10 years. I would just say a helpful tip, we always encourage folks to use patient capital, especially debt you mentioned about that 12 unit. That’s a great example. Patient capital will allow you to ride out in any cycle because the folks who tend to get in trouble with price corrections are ones that are forced to sell. All of a sudden, generally a multifamily. You can keep the ball moving and you can get rents, pay rents, collected expenses paid, but that’s really the concern. There is a, you know, the price correction, kind of impatient capital that has to force a sale.
Charles: Okay. Well that’s fantastic. It’s with these low interest rates that we have now, it’s really, it’s continuing the compression of the cap rates and everything, especially in Tampa with 7-8% rent increases last year alone. So it’s just kind of crazy how many people are moving down into this area. And then also that there’s just not enough inventory. A couple of things, what would you say? And then we can learn more about palm communities and what you guys do. If someone came to you and foreign investor, let’s say, and wanted to purchase apartment complex will be the first couple things other than speaking through a local appraisers that you would suggest them to do to get their ducks in a row before even speaking to a broker.
Dan: Certainly a lot of reading, actually BiggerPockets is a great online resource even for folks buying a hundred unit communities. We read a lot of the BiggerPockets articles very regularly. Read as much as you can. I don’t necessarily mean that, look at market news and say, you know, the news is saying that prices are going to go up 10% next year, so I’m going to buy because I’m relying on that information. Again, no one can predict the future, but I just sort mean it’s more longterm sort of research and reading things that aren’t necessarily, I’m not reading a news article about what rents are going to do between today and tomorrow. I just more want to learn about what regulations are like in the area, how investors can do successful deals etc. So reading I think is just very valuable. Having a good attorney is very helpful. We’ve had a couple of international clients who aren’t familiar with local regulations and for example, they didn’t set up their entity correctly and so they’re being taxed in a sort of inappropriately, sometimes double tax by both the US and when they repatriate that capital into local markets. So to their local country. So a good attorney, local attorney to whatever market want to go into is very helpful.
Dan: And then finally I would say a good operator. Again, it doesn’t have to be us. I’m happy to refer you and I do. We’re free to other folks in the area two interview with, well, yeah, just reaching out to find a good operator who’s going to take care of your property locally. It’s very helpful.
Charles: Dan, how can, how can listeners find out more about your company with Josh Digs and palm communities?
Dan: Yeah, they’re, they’re welcome to visit our we bsite rentpalm.com, (p a l m) and my email address, [email protected] Happy to talk to folks as they review deals. Again, we’re very kind of low pressure shop. We’re very happy with our clients that we have. We don’t need to hunt down another thousand units in business. So I’m happy to just talk to folks and understand their needs. If we can help on the management side, great. If we can simply be a resource to say, hey, you know, you need to get an attorney, I’m happy to put you in touch with, someone who I’ve seen has done right by our clients three or four times over.
Charles: Yeah, it’s great for anybody coming into a new market, whether they’re domestic or foreign, having the ability to have referrals and introductions to people that they might not even know about. Some of the best operators, vendors don’t even advertise, so that’s great.
Dan: Well, and for your listeners, Charles, it seems to know everyone even way more than any of us too. So Charles is a huge, you know, you’re going to a great kind of contacting the area that you always seem to know good folks for inspections and lending and insurance and everyone else.
Charles: Well thank you very much Dan. I really appreciate you being on the show and have a great rest of your day.
Dan: Thanks buddy.
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About Dan Pepper
Dan has been a multifamily real estate investor for 12 years. He focuses on 20-150 unit communities in West Florida. In addition to investing, he & his partner Josh Diggs provide property management to out-of-town investors through their firm Palm Communities.
Palm Communities has worked with international investors with several properties they have managed. Dan stresses to his clients, the importance of trustworthy local experts and patient capital. He focuses on value investing and assists his clients by maintaining their properties, minimizing expenses while maximizing occupancy. He believes that there is not a “one property manager fits all” solution. Property managers are comfortable with certain property types and property classes. An “A” class apartment manager is not going to be the best fit for your “C” class community. Dan regularly suggests certain competitors when a client’s vision for their property is not the same as Palm Communities.
Dan’s company has successfully turned properties around for their clients, most recently a 48-unit complex that was purchased by a group of Venezuelan investors. Palm Communities handled the renovation, rental and advised the clients during the sale. In other instances, property owners hire Dan when their current managers have dropped the ball. Notably, a British apartment complex owner enlisted the services of Palm Communities after their occupancy went from over 90% to 40%. Dan’s firm handled outstanding maintenance issues and was able to return the property to a 90%+ occupancy in under 12 months.
Dan works with both domestic and international investors and suggests that investors speak with property appraisers and property managers before speaking to brokers.
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